Why storytelling matters in finance and leadership

AJ Kulatunga:
Now with all these AI tools, like, information has become a commodity. So what else are you bringing to the table that really creates value? So all these technical minds that I've been working with over the last few years have all produced amazing information, insights, reports. But if you cannot get the organisation to move and act on them, well, how much value are you really bringing to an organisation?

Jacqueline Blondell:
Welcome to the INTHEBLACK podcast. I'm Jacqueline Blondell. Today, we're exploring the story behind the numbers and why narrative is becoming an essential finance discipline. My guest is AJ Kulatunga, who argues that trust in the workplace is shifting from institutional authority to peer credibility, and that finance professionals need more than technical expertise to move ideas forward.

We'll discuss how accountants and finance leaders can build stories around the financial insights so they are understood, remembered, and acted on, and how a practical framework can help turn complex information into clearer decisions. AJ Kulatunga is speaking at this year's CPA Congress, and you can find out more and register by the link in the show notes. Welcome to INTHEBLACK, AJ.

AJ Kulatunga:
Thanks so much for having me, Jackie.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Now, let's start off with talking about why you see trust shifting from hierarchy to peer credibility.

AJ Kulatunga:
Mm, so I play with a lot of data, as did most listeners of your podcast, and I stumbled upon this report called the Edelman Trust Survey, Trust Barometer, sorry. And it is the most comprehensive measure of trust we have in society today, and they go all around the world and measure how do average mortals like ourselves feel about trust. And I noticed a steady decline in traditional hierarchical institutions, you know, your business, your government, and the media.

If we think back maybe between 50 and 100 years ago, these are the sources that, you know, they put out a little bit of information or a message and it would help shape society today. And trust in these traditional hierarchies have declined steadily over the last few years. And so anecdotally, we know this because every time a big corporation appears in the media, well, it's not a great story usually. So there's been a traditional decline in trust, and the data shows that too.

Now, what's interesting is that you'll go to the other side of the coin, well, if that's declining in trust, what are we actually trusting? And there's another report out there from Deloitte, and Deloitte basically looked at media consumption, and that report says that us Aussies on average consume 44 hours of media a week. And basically we're always on digital devices. And what I found, and anecdotally everyone else has found that we spend a lot of time shaping our view of the world through these little devices.

So what's interesting is when you've got traditional hierarchical sources like your business, your government, your media, putting out these messages, well, now you're being measured against what we're receiving through these things, the little phones.

So instantly there's this disconnect in trust. And who appears on the phone? Well, the mortals. You know, there's no real gateway to publish content, which is sometimes a good thing and not so good thing, but we are forming our view of the world through these little devices and then measuring everything else that we encounter through that same lens. So that's a very long way of saying trust has shifted from traditional hierarchy to peer-to-peer credibility.

Jacqueline Blondell:
I agree. I agree. We've been monitoring trust at INTHEBLACK and it is declining over time, probably for the last five, six, seven years. And I think, you know, obviously we're trusting our peers on social media. You know, even if we use something like Airbnb, we're looking at the reviews or when we buy a washing machine, we're looking at the reviews. But let's look at peer credibility in the workplace. How does that work? How do you see it in the workplace? Does that mean that, you know, we are trusting our colleagues more than the corporate hierarchy?

AJ Kulatunga:
It's interesting because I think we are all hypersensitized now to notice nonverbal signals. So a corporate leader will appear via media communication and release a message, you know, it could be a really strategic, important message that needs to be acted upon. And if the people around you and your team are sort of nodding their heads or shaking their heads rather and going, "Oh, not this bloke again," you know, there's instant credibility gone.

So I think leaders trying to impact and influence the environment that they're working in is quite important. And likewise, you know, financial professionals, how are you telling stories that inspire people to move and act? And it's not just positive inspiration. Sometimes it's, okay, we need to reign in some sort of activity somewhere inside the organisation or the business. So I think these nonverbal signals are very important.

And on stage, you know, I talk about, there's this really curious thing that I've never seen a career professional in those big traditional hierarchical institutions. I've never seen them raise their arms above their shoulders. You know, they just don't do that. So when they talk about big change, you know, we're experiencing very big change, you know, our big, enormous change.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Looking down. Yeah.

AJ Kulatunga:
Yeah. And so they don't really know how to play with the space and the gestures and really think about these nonverbal cues, you know, so that's important as well within the workplace. That's how peer-to-peer credibility is manifesting, I suppose, inside the workplace.

Jacqueline Blondell:
So what happens when organisations just cling to hierarchical, top-down reporting lines? Does that mean that they're not getting the trust that they need?

AJ Kulatunga:
I think disregarding hierarchical reporting lines is a mistake. I think they do still have the place, but the impact that these traditional pathways have is diminishing. And I think that, you know, trust has got to come from all around the organisation. It's no longer just top down. And in fact, you know, my primary background is innovation creativity, and I'm a business strategist first and then a global keynote speaker second.

So as a business strategist, one of the things I love doing is asking someone, "Hey, if you want to know anything about this organisation, who do you go ask?" And they will tell me this. And that person, nearly 9 times out of 10, has no formal authority whatsoever. They're just plugged into the ecosystem of the business or the organisation. And it's fascinating to see because they have the really, what's known as social influence power within the organisation. So it's fascinating to see.

Jacqueline Blondell:
That's interesting. Let's turn to sort of storytelling. And you talk a lot about this. Why do you see narrative as something that you can learn, not an innate talent? Because obviously finance professionals are very focused on the data, but then there's obviously a story to tell behind it and a way to communicate. How can this be learned?

AJ Kulatunga:
So what's interesting is I find that it's not very black and white like that. I think it's being constructed like that. So what's interesting is I speak at a lot of conferences where they're highly technical experts and they bring me in to talk about impact and influence. And what I find really interesting is before I started going to these conferences, I felt quite intimidated because these people are really technical.

They know their work and they're amazing. But the humans that show up are just beautifully human, you know, they're just really amazing. They have families, they have hobbies, they have all these amazing stuff. They just happen to have really amazing technical abilities. And so what I've noticed is it's really about, how do you become more human at work? You know, so you're presenting the report, but how are you presenting it?

Is it just numbers on a piece of paper or can you make the numbers dance, I suppose, would be how I'd describe it. So that's through strategic storytelling, you know, and if you have a look at how numbers are used, and some people might not really realise this because they're conditioned to just provide the numbers, you know, "Give me the numbers, give me the data."

But what's interesting is that, you know, you have these beautiful stories that the numbers reflect. And if you have a look at numbers throughout society, what you can actually determine is it's not just about recording what's happened in the past. You can actually use numbers to influence behaviour. So the greatest example of this that everyone would be aware of is the federal budget, you know, it's actually a behavioural design document, not just a finance report. So you have spending, you can move spending around to increase friction, decrease friction, and that correlates to human behaviour.

So likewise, inside an organisation, you can put out a report that says this department needs to spend this amount of money, okay, well, what you're doing is you're shifting the behaviour of that department, moving that around. And if finance professionals think of the things on paper, the numbers on paper as behavioural design documents, I'd love to see how they utilise that data, you know, bring their whole selves into their personality, into their work. And it'll be really exciting to see what's going on.

Jacqueline Blondell:
So let's talk about how they develop that in a minute, but can we talk about the career benefits of being able to tell a story around the numbers, be able to present it as a behavioural design document to your peers and your bosses?

AJ Kulatunga:
So I spent quite a bit of time navigating my own career. And what I found is there's this universal truth, like, no one really wakes up in the morning and goes, "I'm gonna have a bad career." You know, sometimes you feel a little bit lost, the pressure, life, you know, everything. And what I found is really interesting is that your career ascession, you know, the higher up you rise or however you want to build up your career, depends on how much value you bring to the environment around you.

And I think that notion is the real key of really looking at, how do you actually create value from what you're doing? And if you're just presenting information, you know, now with all these AI tools, information has become a commodity. So what else are you bringing to the table that really creates value?

So all these technical minds that I've been working with over the last few years have all produced amazing information, insights, reports. But if you cannot get the organisation to move and act on them, well, how much value are you really bringing to an organisation? And that sort of severely impacts your career as well. So the art of storytelling, strategic storytelling, is both communication, but it's also about thinking differently. And I think that's really what my presentation's all about. It helps you see the world in a slightly different way so that you can create value for yourself, your organisation, and the greater, larger society.

Jacqueline Blondell:
So you've developed a series of principles that guide you on the way to doing this. Can you talk a little bit about those?

AJ Kulatunga:
Sure, so it's called the TLC framework and it's a set of principles, TLC stands for think, look, and communicate. And essentially it's principles, not step-by-step process because one of the things I learned in the professional speaking world was I would, as a young fellow, I'd go listen to these amazing speakers and they'd be so kind and generous and tell me all this beautiful step-by-step stuff.

And me being me goes and implements and executes exactly what I've been told. Maybe it's my Sri Lankan background. I don't know. Right? Do what you're told, right? So I would do this and I couldn't, for the life of me, could not get the same results as these other amazing speakers. And, you know, naively, as I progressed throughout my career, I suddenly realised, "Oh, I'm trying to implement something in an entirely different set of circumstances and context than the person I learned it from." And so what I started to do is distilling things into principles.

So basically these are the fundamental truths of how the world works, and, you know, you have to work out how this applies to your own world. So, you know, the think, look, and communicate framework is really sharing, how do you think about the decisions and the insights, the ideas, the reports that you're sharing? How do you actually look the part, look like a trusted authority? You know, and a lot of people think physical looks is, you know, the be all and end all, but that doesn't play as much as part as you think it does. So it's more about all sorts of other things. And finally, you need to communicate in a way that gets people to move. And that's what I unpack in my presentations.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Speaking of moving, you were talking about numbers dancing before. I believe there's some singing involved in your presentations, a bit of music.

AJ Kulatunga:
There is, so.

Jacqueline Blondell:
What can you tell us about what you'll be doing in terms of-

AJ Kulatunga:
Yeah. So I'm a big proponent for music as a metaphor. And what's interesting is, you know, as I said before, when I go to these conferences, I meet all these beautiful, amazing humans. And what I've found is they're just looking for a reason to be human, you know, and give them permission to be human. And I think a lot of conferences are very technically heavy with all the insights and the data that they present. So in my session, I close my sessions with music as a metaphor. And I don't want to give away the surprise for the upcoming Congress, but one example that I do share about how do you actually bring numbers to life and make them dance.

So the example I use is, in this particular instance will be I bring a guitar on stage and I play a song by Van Morrison, "Brown Eyed Girl." And it's a beautiful song. And for years, you know, I've been playing the song just exactly how it was written down on paper, four chords. You know, and then I sing the song and it's great. And then one day I was in my hometown of Darwin and I saw this other musician playing it slightly differently. And I sat there and I was just in awe because everyone loves "Brown Eyed Girl," but there was something different about this.

So I studied what he did and his version had six chords. And then I go and play his version and then I ask the audience, "Which version do you prefer?" And everyone loves the second version. And there's a reason for that. It's engineered in such a way, the chord structures, the vocal things, vocal nuances, it's engineered in such a way to be more human. And humans connect with human, obviously. So what's interesting is that how this person, how this musician did that was he took a look at what's written down on paper and he had the courage and the curiosity to think and reimagine what's written down on paper to create a better human experience.

And the lesson there for all the listeners in finance or any other technical position is that you deal with numbers on a page 24/7. You know, do you have the courage? Do you have the confidence? Do you have the curiosity to look at what's written down on paper and re-imagine it to create a better human experiences? And just because we're dealing with finance, please do not re-imagine it creatively to create a different story, you know? So, you know, it's important. It's important to make the numbers dance, but-

Jacqueline Blondell:
So not creative accounting, just using the numbers to tell the story.

AJ Kulatunga:
Exactly.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Just want to make all listeners clear about that.

AJ Kulatunga:
Thank you.

Jacqueline Blondell:
But what I've taken from the last two answers, AJ, is that it's really important to put your own, not spin on the numbers, but don't try and take someone else's communication style and make it your own. Use what you have to begin to be able to start telling stories around numbers to present scenarios to leaders. Would that be correct?

AJ Kulatunga:
Yeah, exactly right. You know, and because leaders now, like, our attention spans, you know, despite the three-hour movies and the cinema these days, our attention spans are quite limited. And in fact, if you're a busy leader, organisation leader, you're running around, you're putting out all sorts of different fires, you know? And I guess the key impact here to really drive impact is you might not realise it, but whenever you come up with the insights and ideas or recommendation, it's almost like you're placing that on someone else's shelf and there's a whole bunch of other things on this person's shelf that you might not be aware of.

So how do you get this person to really take a look at your thing and not be distracted by everything else on their shelf? And the answer is that, you know, you got to be unique. We said it before, make the numbers dance, you know, bring it to life. Tell a story. What do these numbers mean? You know, and I talk a little bit about this in my think, look, communicate, and really look at how you can present your idea, your recommendation, your insights, your risk analysis in a way that gets people to listen.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Great. Okay. Well, we're going to finish up with, been watching a fair bit of your work on your website and I've seen you talk about how you feel you've met your father many times during your career. So can we just close out with this story?

AJ Kulatunga:
Sure.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Why does your dad keep popping up during your career? And is he following you or is it something you recognise in other people?

AJ Kulatunga:
Yeah, it's interesting. So just to clarify, bit of backstory, long story medium, my dad was a traditional Sri Lankan army officer during a time when the British ruled Sri Lanka. So my childhood was actually bootcamp, you know? To make matters worse, my dad was, he had this view of the world, again, a traditional view of the world where academic excellence equates to life fulfilment, meaning that if you studied hard, get good grades, you'd get a good job, attract the right person to marry, have babies and die, that's the Sri Lankan life, right?

So the problem with that view of the world is the first part, if you're not academically gifted, then your life's stuffed. So my dad and I always used to have conflict, and on stage I tell the story of this one time when we had conflict and I resolved the conflict in this really unconventional way.

And I was telling this story for years and then I started thinking about, "Well, what does this story actually mean?" You know, what's the organisation context like? It's a great story, but what does it actually mean and how does it help others move?

And so I think others, when I say they've met my dad, I'm talking about that mentality, the really siloed mentality that doesn't really thinks it's their way or the highway, you know, very set in their ways and, you know, accountants, finance professionals, any other technical people really trying to generate organisational value might have encountered that mindset, that archetype of that person that isn't willing to listen to anyone else, but they're being forced to.

And there's different ways where you can lead a person to where they need them to go. And so that's what I mean by, you know, seeing my dad everywhere. It's not like he's got frequent flyer miles and he's stalking everyone.

Jacqueline Blondell:
No, I am relieved. I am relieved. But many thanks, AJ. I feel like this conversation's given our listeners plenty of food for thought.

AJ Kulatunga:
Thanks so much, Jackie.

Jacqueline Blondell:
Just remember that you can hear more from AJ at this year's CPA Congress. Links to more information and how to register are in the show notes. If you enjoyed the conversation, please like and subscribe so you don't miss future episodes, and feel free to share it with friends and colleagues. Until next time, thanks for listening.