Practical ways you can manage workplace conflict

Genevieve Hawkins:
When we're absolutely determined that we are right, that's a warning sign, because it means that we are losing perspective, that we're digging our claws in and going, we're here. It is a really, really powerful thing, if we can get to letting go of thinking we have the truth, and accepting the idea that there are multiple truths or multiple perspectives on any one situation, even if they're really hard for us to accept.

Tahn Sharpe:
Hello and welcome to the INTHEBLACK Podcast, I'm Tahn Sharpe, editor of INTHEBLACK, and today we're talking about something that we all do poorly at least once a week, and that is disagreeing. My guest today is Genevieve Hawkins, the founder of consultancy agency, Mentally at Work, and someone I hope you will agree is well-placed to talk about this, because Genevieve has spent her career studying why workplace disagreements go wrong, and what we can do to help ourselves prepare to disagree well. Genevieve, welcome to the podcast.

Genevieve Hawkins:
Thank you, Tahn, it's great to be here.

Tahn Sharpe:
Good stuff. Now, we're going to get into it from all sides today, but I just want to start by asking, in your line of work, are people often asking you to settle their own disagreements?

Genevieve Hawkins:
They are. At times people do like to say, "Can you solve it?" And of course my first thing is, "I'm not solving it for you."

Tahn Sharpe:
Sure, that makes sense, I guess that's not your primary role. But let's start simple, if we could. As a baseline, what's the difference between a disagreement and a fight in a workplace setting? Because I feel like often they get conflated and they get considered as the same thing, but they're different, aren't they?

Genevieve Hawkins:
They are, and sometimes, when people can talk about disagreement and fight or disagreement and conflict, I think that fight or conflict can often be used there. But particularly when I think about the term fight, Tahn, for me, it comes with a, I'm going to say emotional dysregulation. So, it's not that a disagreement says I'm not emotional, because in a disagreement we can care passionately about a particular outcome, when you're in a fight, you're losing perspective because your emotion is taking over, and the emotion is just driving everything that you're doing.

Tahn Sharpe:
Okay, that makes sense. Now, when I'm having a disagreement, I often try to assume good intent on behalf of the other person. I try to look at it from their perspective, and imagine that they're coming at it from the right place. But sometimes, Genevieve, they're wrong. How do I disagree well in that situation? Because sometimes they're just wrong.

Genevieve Hawkins:
They're just wrong, Tahn, they're just wrong. I guess my first question back is saying, are they? Are they wrong? What if they were right? So, it's interesting. And in fact, it's funny, I was actually having a conversation with someone about this the other day, where I was talking about when we get stuck in the space of being right, when we're absolutely determined that we are right, that that's a warning sign, because it means that we've actually, we are losing perspective, that we're digging our claws in and going, we're here.

And the person did come back to me to say, "But what if I'm right, and what if they are wrong?" And what I would reflect back to that is saying, there are always multiple perspectives on any particular situation. And even when we think we probably know all of the perspectives, all the truths, we really don't know all of it.

And so, that challenge is to say, how do I take a deep breath? How do I hold my truth lightly? And how do I stop and consider how might this person be right? So, where are they coming from that in their mind, they are convinced they're right? It's not easy, it is very much not easy, but it is a really, really powerful thing, if we can get to letting go of thinking we have the truth, and accepting the idea that there are multiple truths or multiple perspectives on any one situation, even if they're really hard for us to accept.

Tahn Sharpe:
Okay. So, even if you have conviction that you're right, trying to imagine where the other person is coming from, how could I possibly be wrong? What are the other perspectives here as well?

Genevieve Hawkins:
Correct. Yeah. And it is hard, you're saying when you hold that really, really firmly. And there's degrees of things on... I mean, it's even interesting. I go, what's a fact? Like you say, well, that's a red car. You go, well, actually, what if the person has some issues with colorblindness, and they can't quite pick up the colour the same as us? So, even at that level when you go, it's pretty factual, that that's the case.

There are some things clearly that are far more straightforward than others. But yes, the idea is that even when you feel like I've done all my research and everything that I've seen, I believe I'm right and they are wrong, they're likely, if they're sticking their heels in as well and you can't seem to convince them to come to your side, then they're likely seeing things that you are not. And so, if you can hold that view lightly to go, I've got a view, I just don't have the complete view.

Tahn Sharpe:
Okay, good perspective. There's a theory that when you're having a disagreement and you start to feel like you're winning or that you're scoring points, that that's actually a red flag. Can you speak to that? Can you explain why that would be something to be concerned about or a warning sign?

Genevieve Hawkins:
Yeah, it is a danger sign, and I'm sure people can... And I mean, look, I can be guilty of that as much as the next person of... I mean, I don't go into an argument thinking I'm going to score points, but there are times when you're going, if the emotion takes over and then you go, ha ha, I've got them that on that one, it's not such a great thing. But what it is it's, at an animal brain level, we're searching for making sense of the patterns that we're seeing.

And so, when we feel that we're one up on someone else, it's like our animal brain is giving us a bit of a surge of some chemicals to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, and that feels good. But what that means is it risks us holding onto that more tightly, and it risks us getting into a space, because it's almost like we have this... Well, it is. We have a cortisol reaction or a stress reaction to it, and we're in that we're defending or we're attacking, going, we've got the right view.

But what that means is that we then actually shut down. So, the danger is that we shut down and we can't see more perspectives, which means that we have the risk of escalating the conversation further, which is part of why... So, at the second book that I wrote, I called it Shrinking Elephants, and I often talk about that concept of saying we've got an elephant in the room. People say there's this thing that we're not talking about, or sometimes we're talking about it, but we are really talking about it from really, really different perspectives.

And the more we dig down in, I'm right and I want to keep pointing my view, is like we're standing on one side of the elephant and going, I'm seriously telling you, it's just this one big flat wall of stuff, and then I can't see what else is there. So, it's that real danger. So, the moment that you're feeling that you are absolutely adamantly right is a danger zone that you are stuck in, and your emotions are driving where you're at rather than curiosity.

Tahn Sharpe:
I imagine wrapped up in that idea is the notion of conversational receptiveness. You need to be receptive to imagine that you're not only right, that there are other perspectives, is that right?

Genevieve Hawkins:
It is. It is. So, that's that sense of saying, how can we accept multiple truths? How can we beat a space where there are these different perspectives there? And in that idea of, if I'm coming into a conversation with you, or a disagreement with you, but I'm coming in a way that says, well, I'm just going to convince Tahn that I'm right, and I've got all of these answers, and I come across in a very confident rather than... And there's a balance, it's not saying not be confident. But if I'm coming across going, well, Tahn, I really need to tell you these things, and I think you need to understand all of this stuff, then it is more likely that you are sitting there going, Genevieve can't hear, Genevieve can't listen to me.

So, that conversational receptionist is being able to sit there and say, this person will see things in a different way to me, so rather than me trying to go, I need to get my view across, it's going, how do I step back and find a way of truly showing them and signaling to them, I'm really curious to hear your perspective as well, so that we can find together a more collective perspective, or as I say, shrink the elephant. Because the elephant gets bigger when you're stuck on either side of you. When you can walk around to each other's perspectives, you often go, ah, the issue isn't as big as we thought it was, it gets much smaller and manageable.

Tahn Sharpe:
Yeah, I often find that when I'm having a disagreement, if I take myself out of that adversary position and ask questions and do some listening, it breaks the cycle of just two people talking and not listening.

Genevieve Hawkins:
It does. It does. And it takes one person... It's got to start with one person recognising that, of going, actually, I think I need to take a break or a moment and get curious again about the other person and where the other person's coming from. When you're both stuck in, locked in, that's when things really escalate.

Tahn Sharpe:
Yeah, it's a good thing to do, and it stops you from living in a vacuum, and only hearing your views and only listening to people when they tell you what you want to hear, I guess, which is pretty much what our algorithms do online. I want to talk about something else now, I want to talk about what I would characterise as the sneakier cousin of disagreement, which is passive aggression. Especially in the workplace, when people say, "No, it's fine," with a very pointed sigh, and not tell you exactly what they think. And it's like this veiled kind of enmity that comes through. How do you deal with passive aggression? How do you get people to say the thing that they want to say in a calm and collective manner?

Genevieve Hawkins:
I call it quiet conflict. So, I sit there and say it's rife everywhere, I mean, it's not actually just in organisations, sadly, it's actually in relationships generally, that we don't have enough of a skillset or muscle built up about how do we have these sorts of conversations. So, there's probably some stuff that I'll talk about in how do you build a foundation to have those conversations, and then what do you do in the moment?

So, the first part that I would always say to people is find out how do you build just a good standard good working relationship with people? And often, a trick that I say to people is find out what you have in common with people that has nothing to do with work. And it's not, I have this in common because we both happen to have kids, or we both happen to live in the same suburb, it's what's something that you love talking about outside of work that actually you'd happily talk about inside of work?

Because there is this chemical reaction that we get in at an animal brain level, if we find something that we have in common with the other person. And whether that... For a lot of people, not everyone, but in Australia, we tend to be a little bit sports dominated. So, sometimes that sporting team conversation can be the thing that breaks the ice. Sometimes it can be other things. So, it might be you're both dog lovers or cat lovers, or particular genres of movies or books or hobbies or whatever it might be.

But that type of just building up a bit of a connection that says when things can get difficult, we can actually come back to saying, can we just go, hey what happened on the weekend with our team, kind of thing? That breaking the ice helps to settle people into, you are okay as a human being, so I think I can talk to you. So, things in common.

The other thing I would say is common language. So, it's really, really valuable to introduce a couple of frameworks. And yes, I'm biassed because, I mean, that's why I talk about Shrinking Elephants, but I often talk with organisations about let's use the elephant as the concept here. Because all of a sudden what you're doing is it's not about you or me, it's a subject, so let's put the subject in the middle and talk about it.

And so, we have people going, "Oh, I think I've stumbled across an elephant here," which kind of is a lighthearted or an easier way of breaking people into the conversation. The other thing is being able to role model yourself. So, role model how you have conversations with other people. So, when you are feeling something and you're going, don't get into rolling your eyes or do deep sighs yourself, how do you go, I need to name this myself and talk about it.

And then the other thing is just being able to, in the moment, actually clock what's happening for that other person. Particularly to your point when you're giving the examples, because your examples are about saying someone rolls their eyes or there's a deep sigh, those are far more obvious, the hard ones are when people stay completely silent. But if you and I are chatting and you're like, "Okay... With that... To be able to go, "Tahn, couldn't help but notice that just when I suggested that we do this, that what I saw was that you rolled your eyes and took a deep sigh, can you help me understand what's happening? What's going on for you at the moment in your head? What's the story about this?" And so, it's essentially going, I'm not going to say you are not saying something, it's more saying, I've noticed this. This is what I've noticed, help me understand, tell me a little bit more. So, it's kind of drawing them out in that way.

Tahn Sharpe:
Now, Genevieve, we spoke earlier about conversational receptiveness. In the heat of the battle or the discussion as it were, is there a playbook or a method that you can use to help you retain that conversational receptiveness?

Genevieve Hawkins:
I do think that all of us can continue to learn to understand ourselves, so that recognising when we're feeling our heart rate increasing or we're feeling the tension in our body, we're feeling those moments where our own animal brain may take over, and we may not be as effective as we could be in the moment.

And I encourage people, and in fact, I've done this myself at times, where there's something that's really, really, really heated in the room, that people are starting to get uncomfortable because there's fundamentally different views, where if I'm leading the room and I'm feeling even my... A, I could be feeling myself genuinely going, I'm feeling a bit... It's building up in me, or I'm noticing that others are feeling that way, instead of calling it out with them, I'll actually call a break. So, I'll say, oh, can we just pause for a moment because I'm finding that I'm kind of feeling a little bit...

I'm feeling like the emotions are building up in me and I actually want to make sure that I really stay curious to this. I just need a couple of minutes, can I have a bathroom break? I'm just going to have a drink, or something that just breaks it. And sometimes that's what people just need. People have kind of forgotten, and they're in, they're in the moment, and then if you can cause a break, people can go, right, okay, I can now literally take a deep breath. I can slow my breathing down, and then get back into that in a more curious space.

Tahn Sharpe:
It sounds like in a few different ways that one of the key methods is to take yourself out of that cycle, whether it's role modelling or finding common ground or just going to the bathroom, as you say, just taking a break in some respect, just getting out of that cycle of that adversarial kind of position is really beneficial.

Genevieve Hawkins:
It really is.

Tahn Sharpe:
Yeah, you mentioned that you should take a notebook as well. Is that part of the playbook?

Genevieve Hawkins:
Look, I think the notebook is, I think that depends on the context of what's going on. So, what I say to people is that when you are first starting to have conversations that feel a bit more uncomfortable, where you go, I know that there's going to be some disagreement and what it's going to be like, that actually having some of your notes written down in front of you, not to hold it and just go, I'm reading from a piece of paper, but just to give a bit of framing and reference is useful.

And I always say to people if you're doing that, that you start off with saying, look, if you don't mind, I'm sorry, this is probably going to be a bit of a clunky and awkward conversation, and I've just got some notes here just to remind myself to make sure that I'm staying curious and helping to understand your perspective as much as my perspective, and that's why I've got some notes here to help me and I hope that that's okay.

So, it's not a, I'm bringing in my notebook and I'm reading from it, or I'm going to write everything down, so much as in, A, when you're first learning, and, B, if it's fairly complex, it's often useful to have a few reference points in there. And I mean, I would do that even in a... I'm going to say not in a conflict-conflict situation, but if I'm presenting to a board, and particularly if I'm going and asking for money or it might be, but when you're going and presenting something significant, that it's not about having every single thing written down, but it's like, you just have a couple of words or thoughts there that just prompt you and remind you of how it is, how you want to be, and how you want to frame up that conversation.

Tahn Sharpe:
Yeah, exactly. Your keywords that you really want to get across. What about when you are disagreeing upwards, you might say, if you have to disagree with a boss or a manager. And a lot of the times some people feel like the manager or their boss doesn't listen. What tips would you have for someone who's trying to disagree upwards with authority?

Genevieve Hawkins:
Yes. So, a number of different tips. It is really interesting in this one. So, look, there's a couple of things, part of it does come back to what I was saying before about what's really valuable in how do you find a connection with this person as a human being, and appreciate... So, there'll be some people listening, going, "I don't think my boss is a human being." So, it depends on the relationship. So, there's lots of different ways to manage this depending on the relationship.

But I would still come back to, what is it that you have in common with a person? How do you find this connection so that you are not just coming to them when something's really difficult, but you actually got some level of connection there? The other thing is understanding them, watching them and observing them, and understanding what is it that they need and what is it that is the most useful ways of communicating with them.

So, sometimes you'll have managers that you go, they want you in the room, and actually you're going to have to deal with the discomfort of them disagreeing with you because you need to bounce around with them because that's what they want, versus ones that go, can I have a deck to read beforehand so I actually understand what I'm looking at before you disagree? But for me, it's always, again, that same space of saying they are just another human being, they are possibly under pressures that you won't know... And I shouldn't say even saying possibly. They will be under pressures that you won't know, because all of us are, whether it's outside work or inside work. So, understand that when they're disagreeing, where is it that they're coming from?

And what's really useful, and in fact, this is useful with anyone, particularly with the manager, to say, I'm feeling like this is going to be an awkward conversation... So again, kind of leaning in with the, I'm human and it's got to be slightly awkward, but I need to have a conversation because I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about a particular situation. Because I'm seeing the world in a particular view and my sense is that you don't.

And instead of then launching into, I want to tell you about my view, you actually go, because I'm feeling uncomfortable and it feels like we're differing in where we're seeing, can you help me understand a little bit more of your perspective so I can get a sense of what you are seeing that I'm not seeing? And if I listen to that, you go, okay, so if I play that back to you, what I'm hearing is from your perspective, these are the issues. And you may then go, I'm actually going to, in the meantime go, actually, now I get that, I'm going to change my mind.

Or you go, Oh, I get that, can I add a bit more flavour? But it is very much about how do you build your relationship in the first place? How do you come in with what's going on for them? How do I put myself in those shoes, and the pressures and things that they may be under? And how do I actually come in going, my purpose is not to convince them of my view, my purpose is to actually better understand their view, and then I can make an informed decision about what my next step is.

Tahn Sharpe:
I think this is really valuable information and really useful information for our members and listeners. Genevieve, thank you so much for joining us today.

Genevieve Hawkins:
Thank you, Tahn. It's a topic that I could speak on for ages, but hopefully the conversation that we've had today and the ideas that are there give people some level of kind of thoughts about what to do. And if I was going to leave one message at the end of it, it's really about just saying keep learning to clock yourself, learn to recognise when you're feeling those emotions coming up, and saying, how do you find a way of circuit breaking and staying curious to multiple perspectives that are there?

Tahn Sharpe:
Thank you so much. For our listeners, eager to learn more? Please be sure to check out the show notes for links and additional resources. And please, of course, as always, subscribe to INTHEBLACK, and if you enjoyed this podcast, share it with your friends and colleagues in the business community. Thanks for joining us.