CPA Australia’s APAC small business survey (part 2)

Garreth Hanley:
This is With Interest, a business, finance and accounting news podcast brought to you by CPA Australia.

Jeffrey O'Sullivan:
In this special episode of With Interest, we bring you a recording of the recent CPA Australia small business survey launch that took place on the 24th of March, 2025 at Parliament House in Canberra.

Part one is a recording of the presentation and part two is the panel discussion.

We hope you enjoy this deep dive into the survey results and discussion that covers the opportunities and difficulties facing Australian business.

Elinor Kasapidis:
So there were lots of facts and figures, lots of... Essentially, I think that we are speaking on behalf of Australian small businesses. These are their results. This is their voice. And Gavan's work over 16 years has developed a very clear picture. And now I think we're starting to look at the foundations of defining what small business policy in Australia needs to look like.

So today we're very honoured to have three amazing guest panellists. I'd like to introduce Bruce Billson, for those who don't know him, Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman, who has been a fierce advocate for small businesses for many, many years. We have Angad Soin, who is Xero's Managing Director of Australia and New Zealand and Global Chief Strategy Officer. Xero is obviously a tech company that's grown from small beginnings into a global multinational. And they, of course, service millions and millions of small businesses. And we also have Yasmin Coe FCPA, who is a current president of the ACT division, and she's a small business owner herself. So let's welcome our panellists today.

So thank you so much. As Gavan said, you know, there are rays of hope and sunshine, but overall, this sector needs some help. We need to really push it forward. So Bruce, as I mentioned, your deep experience and passion for small business, what are you seeing as the Ombudsman and how do you see that aligned with these results?

Bruce Billson:
Ellie, before I say anything, I just want to acknowledge you and Gavan and CPA. How about we show our appreciation?

One of the things when I used to be somebody in this place, I was worried that the meta, not as in the digital platform, the aggregate numbers would mask a richer story. And I tried to get Australia and we managed to get Australia into the Global Competitiveness Council. And it was an independent private sector body that judged just what the ecosystem was like in our economy, because I couldn't see where the catalyst for reform was going to come from. We were living a great life off nature's gifts, energy, agriculture, hydrocarbons, precious minerals. And I thought, look, we can't stay on this trajectory forever. That market may shift.

Why I wanted to acknowledge your work is similar to what we're trying to achieve. And that is, what is the catalyst for positive and constructive action? Why is this important? Well, we are sleepwalking into a big corporate economy right now. Gavan's right. 33% of our GDP is created by small and family businesses. And that warrants celebration. But 15 years ago, it was 41%. Right now, two in every five private sector jobs are enabled by the community. We're celebrating. And that is, again, worth acknowledging.

But it was one in two a decade and a half ago. So that contribution, that share is contracting whilst we look at aggregate numbers that might be growing, helped largely by a squillion of extra people coming into the economy.

So if we stay on that course, what's going to happen? We're going to lose that vital contribution, I would argue, a key driver of productivity. And you've seen those numbers. Think about where small and family businesses operate. Well, outside the capital cities and where you don't have a mine, small and family businesses are the economy. So we're seeing an impact there.

Average age of 50, imagining that their business will be that nest egg they'll sell and live a glorious life. When where is the market for the new purchaser? Where is that coming from? And also the challenge that if you've been in a business that's done you well over many, many years, the inclination for you to change is not particularly strong.

So throw all those things together and look at current numbers. The most recent year was the lowest number on record of a self-employed, non-employing small business actually taking on their first employee. It was 3%.

Now, I would put to you, we can choose to worry not much about those things, or we can actually say, hang on, this is a trajectory we need to arrest. Our pulse is a global leading indicator of what the ecosystem is like for small business. Grabs the empirical data around business conditions, it grabs survey data on animal sentiments, but we scrape because we're part of government working for small business with government, not the other way around. We get access to data that tells us what are the decisions actually being taken now? What are the choices being contemplated? And we see that ecosystem is 25% off where it was when the COVID support started coming off.

So if we accept small business as the engine room of the economy, folks, we've lost a cylinder. And we need to do something about it. And that's something, you know, I'm so optimistic, even my blood group is positive. So we've backed up that work with 14 constructive action steps. So many of them go straight to the heart of these points.

Just hoping it will change will not bring about that change. We need to recognise what's going on, respond to that data and take positive action. Otherwise, we'll end up in a place I don't think we want to be. And that's what gets me out of bed every day.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Thanks so much, Bruce. And it's always good to look at history and the trends and have a bit of that reality check. And the product placement too. And the product placement. And we do also recommend the 14-point plan from ASBFEO. It really does start, like you say, a platform for change and start to target these things.

Now, Yasmin, you're a small business owner yourself in the community. How do these findings resonate with you as a potentially younger, high-growth business that is looking to grow? How does that resonate with you?

Yasmin Coe FCPA:
Yeah, absolutely. I would agree with the findings that we've seen in the survey. And I would certainly agree with the sentiment delivered by Bruce. Small businesses in Australia are currently operating in an incredibly difficult environment. I'd say a really fiscally constrained environment. And that is what I see as the biggest impediment to our growth.

At the moment, we saw on the graphs the impact of rising prices. And all of those inputs are price rises that we see and feel in our small business. For us, a huge driver is the cost of goods. And in my niche industry, we're also facing an industry-specific crisis around cocoa pricing. It doesn't impact just my industry, but it impacts hospitality more broadly, restaurants, hotels, and the many people that are employed through those industries.

I think that... I often describe, sorry, that small business operators are currently sitting in that place between a rock and a hard place, that really difficult environment where we're facing ever-increasing costs through inflationary pressures, industry-specific pressures, you know, energy, insurance. But we're also really constrained by our ability to fully pass on those costs. And that's because we recognise that our customers, those people who we seek to serve, the people we get out of bed for, are also making really tough decisions around their spending because their households are also faced and squeezed in a similar manner to what we are. So, it puts us in that difficult situation. And that's where a lot of small businesses at the moment are really struggling to cut through and to grow.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Thanks, Yasmin. And Angad, Xero has a lot of data, has a lot of clients, has a global kind of footprint. How do you see Australia compared to other markets?

Angad Soin:
Yeah, I'm going to take some of Bruce's positive blood type. And I'll, look, if you look at the data and you looked at the growth metrics alone, you would say, well, we're failing and we're behind.

At the same time, I think Yasmin just touched on it. I just met two founders in the audience before coming on stage. The main reason most small businesses start is not purely growth, not purely financial incentives. Now, that doesn't mean it's important, doesn't mean it's critical. But in the survey, it does talk about that 80% are satisfied. They might not be getting the work-life balance you talked about, Gavan, but they are satisfied. And so I think it's important just to remember that the purpose of why a lot of people go into small businesses is not purely financial growth.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't support it. It doesn't mean we shouldn't find ways to help stimulate it. But I think also just remember that you're supporting, I think Bruce put it well, you support a small business, you're supporting your community. They get out of bed, they may put that profit into supporting the local sports team or your local surf lifesaving club, whatever it might be. So that's, you know, that's the additional reason to support small business, not just help them grow for the sake of it.

Bruce Billson:
Can I just jump in? I mean, I think the satisfaction one is a good point to raise. But Jodie Trembath's with us from ACCI and their work was quite telling. And I know we'll talk about regulatory burden, but the deficit of joy. Let's, I mean, we've all, well, most of us have run our own business. Mine, fortunately, with the bodacious Mrs. B and that pillow talk of cash flow. I mean, great, it's just great.

But the reason for getting into it is a multifaceted story of joy. It brings meaning and purpose and community engagement. And in Jodie's team's work, and your chair of your small business committee, Jodie, characterized it well. She said, for many people, it's just no fun anymore. And that's something we shouldn't lose sight of, that there is a need to nourish the appetite, or as we call it, energise enterprise. So that it's something people go, no, I want a piece of that.

Because if you see family businesses and you meet them and you ask them about their succession plan, too many tell me they've spoken to the kids. And the kids have said, I don't know what I do with my life when I grow up, but I know that's not it. And isn't that interesting?

And those that do take over some of those businesses because they've got no access to finance, the business is actually being taken over. It's being gifted to the next generation. And so those parents that have worked their tail off all of a sudden see no economic return and may well face a retirement window, which is incredibly challenged by a lack of resources. This is the joy factor. And I think we shouldn't lose sight of that joy quotient as part of the conversation.

Elinor Kasapidis:
It's a really good point because we have people with passion. We have people with purpose. And even if they may not be focused on financial growth per se, I think that they want to grow their presence, their connection with the community and their sense of success. And what we do hear from our members is that the joy has gone, that it's becoming too hard, that the purpose is not enough to get them out of bed in the morning. So this is where government policy can come in.

And so in that sense, Gavan, you've listed a whole bunch of things around small business. Do you think a major cultural shift is needed from government in terms of how they see small business and how they design policy?

Gavan Ord:
I think there's a few elements to that is that I think we see from governments and all governments is see a problem, they can regulate the problem. Whereas, you know, we live in a market economy, sometimes it's best just to let the problem fix itself, at least work its way out. So I think there needs to be a shift from there's a problem, there's a regulation for it. So I think we need to do that.

There's also a need to obviously do some sort of really deep red tape reduction work. Now, what we often see is governments come in and they do a red tape reduction, which is really just trying to wind back the regulation of the previous government. But at the same time, new regulation grows and grows. So they're not putting constraints on the new growth. So it needs to be a mix of let's go and tackle and remove unnecessary regulation. But at the same time, put more and more constraints on the growth and new regulation, because you take from one side and it just keeps growing on the other side.

So this is what we always see. And there's one for one on occasions and things like that. But you're taking away one regulation is not even enforced. So it really doesn't actually do anything.

The other thing is there needs to be investment in technology so that it's easier for business to interact with government, but also easier for advisors to interact with government as well. We had the modernizing business registers was an example where great idea went off the rails a bit. But it would have allowed, made it easier for business to deal with government and our members to deal with government.

So there's multiple ways in which we can tackle this problem. And there's not one way. So yesterday, the government announced that there's a national electrician licensing system that came in. Good idea. It's 2025, 125 years ago that Federation was started. I didn't know that electricity was different in Queensland to the rest of the country. So I was just surprised that we actually just got to that yesterday. So there, look, but, you know, make a bit of fun of it. But little examples.

But I think there needs to be something a little bit more holistic, a little bit more detailed. And we need to shift the culture from let's regulate the problem to let's try and let's find other ways to address problems rather than create a new regulation.

Elinor Kasapidis:
And it's very easy to introduce a new rule. Well, let's fix this. But I think what's not cost and it always annoys me with the costings. Oh, there's no cost. But in fact, there's a massive cost to every business, every advisor. The government is not delivering the tech solution to make it seamless. And they're imposing that on the private sector. And all of that cost, instead of being incurred by the politicians and government that impose it, they actually then pass it on. And that is the productivity and cost problem.

So, Yasmin, as a small business owner yourself, you clearly still have the passion. But what is it that you think would, where could the government help you?

Yasmin Coe FCPA:
Absolutely. Well, I would agree with Gavan's sentiment around that shift in focus. And I would just say anything the government can do to really enable and encourage productivity is going to move the needle for small businesses. We have a productivity issue. And I think productivity growth is crucial to industry growth, to small business growth and flowing on to the prosperity and all the benefits that will come with that.

To do that, backing an investment. Our business has benefited over the years from the instant asset write-off. But that's only as good as the certainty of that regulation. We've had years where we've had the timeframe in which to have the confidence to make that investment decision, secure the asset we need. Unfortunately, ours aren't made in Australia. So, that involves, you know, timeframes, logistics, contingencies. And that relies on having measures announced in a timely manner to get that in.

So, we need certainty. So, when the government announces a great measure like the instant asset write-off, don't just announce it, but actually get it through.

The case for business investment, I think, is really clear. We've seen in the survey results what happens when businesses are empowered to invest through technology, what that means for growth, and what that means for positive sentiment around business.

So, that investment case is clear. So, back the investment. Back the investment in technology. Back the adoption of investment. Cut the complexity and uncertainty. We heard in the survey that there were something like over 100 definitions of a small business and it was narrowed down to one particular metric.

A great example last year was the passage of the IR laws. I know myself and many small businesses were kept awake trying to understand what that would mean for us, what that would mean for hiring decisions. If I'm sitting at 12 FTE and we're talking about a law that's going to impact businesses at 15 FTE, are we talking FTE or are we talking headcount? Because the government wasn't even clear at that point. So, we didn't know, for example, if we invested in additional staff, would we be caught up in additional regulatory complexity reporting? Would we be penalised, perhaps to a criminal extent, if we got it wrong?

Then these measures and the time it takes for a small business take us away from productivity. So, going back to productivity, you know, for me, it's anything that moves the needle on productivity. And that is investment. It's supporting capital, helping us to use what capital we have, incentivising us to invest.

Instant asset write-off, energy incentives, technology adoption incentives, rebates. They're all really great things. Certainty of regulation and reducing that uncertainty and unnecessary complexity. So, rather than a thought bubble, bring us a really well thought out process that we can implement and adopt with confidence.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Thanks, Yasmin. And I think it's a challenge because you're right around headcount. So, you can have a very small business with 15 casual staff and you don't necessarily, the regulations are not intended for you or that kind of entity, but they're caught up. So, it's the design and the thresholds as well that's important.

You did mention technology. So, Angad, I'll talk to you. I'll turn to you. How do you see technology adoption helping business? Like you are, I'd argue, a reg tech as well as a fintech product. So, how do you see the role for technology and software in business?

Angad Soin:
Sure. And the survey talks about Australian businesses having lower adoption. But if you zoom out for a second, Australians as the population on a per capita basis actually adopt technology almost equal to our Asia-Pacific counterparts or globally.

We have more mobile phones than most average countries do. I'm sure you said in your kids or yourself, you're on social media. So, as a country, we actually take on technology very, very quickly. So, then if you take the parallel to small business, in some instances, there is a parallel.

We are the beneficiary of that, cloud accounting is one of the highest penetrated adoptions here in Australia than it is many other countries. You take social media usage to your point, Gavan, and online retail as a source of revenue, though, that is much, much lower. Even though Australian consumers are actually pretty active on online.

So, I think for the government, it's about education. Once Australians know the benefit of technology, they will adopt it. By the way, technology is just not software. Technology is capital equipment required to run different types of businesses. And then it's the right incentives, the consistency of those incentives, the plan around those incentives. But I think really it's education and clear incentives and a plan that allow businesses to invest in that technology because it is an investment. You invest first, you may reap the rewards later. Some are more instant, some take a longer time. So, you need that economic certainty.

Elinor Kasapidis:
It's a great answer because, again, that requires dedicated long-term thinking when it comes to policy design. And it requires ongoing commitments to things that are not changed from government to government, really. And that's something that in Australia it's a challenge sometimes to achieve. And so, while we await tomorrow's federal budget to get an insight into the government's economic plans, look, I'll call it. I don't think there's going to be much business in there, let alone small business. But let's see. I could be wrong.

Bruce, to what extent does national global economic outlook impact small business sentiment? I mean, there's a lot going on in the world. We have the budget. We have an election coming. How does that impact the thinking of a small business owner?

Bruce Billson:
In a few ways. I mean, we talked about the idea of the locus of control in our lives being closer because of our business. We're better able to manage our own time and other responsibilities. When you see what's going on globally, a lot of people feeling that stuff being done to them, not through them, and a sense of less influence over those things, that is a source of great anxiety.

It's also, though, an example, and that's why this work is so important, to show that there are practical case studies of where positive action has occurred and can occur. So, it's encouraging in that extent.

When I was a cabinet minister and used to be someone in this place for small business, I went to Singapore and talked with the team at SMART. And at that stage, the focus is very much around productivity being automation and technology. Now, I'd never realised, as in downtown Singapore, I met a hairdresser and they said, oh, we've got this automated hair washing thing. I mean, look what happened. It was incredible. I was either that or my man bun was too tight as a young lad.

But at that time, if you invested in automation, it was fully rebated. Even if it was a stupid idea, you made that investment, you got the money back, and then for many of them, they onsold some of the tech quickly. That then moved into a technology lens because they're sort of saying, we want you to go there and we will enable you to do so.

I was here when we discounted the small business company tax rate, as a statement. Guess what was a feature of the UK election? Should a self-employed person pay the same rate of national insurance contribution? In the US, there was a discussion about carrying forward some of the earlier era Trump incentives where a chunk of your income was just set aside. And they said, no, no, you keep that and we'll apply tax rates beyond that. And the Democrats were running a $50,000 start. I mean, there are ideas everywhere. I mean, my frustration is the willingness to embrace them.

And so small businesses look out and say, well, that can happen there. Why can't it happen here? And I think why we put the 14 steps out was to bring forward some of those ideas and to say, this is a coherent set of positive action steps you can take now. So why not? If not, why not? And I think that posture needs to shift at a time of great uncertainty.

My last comment is, where's the next gen coming from? Now, we will be comforted and I'll foreshadow some debate that will be here this next week. This week, the opposition will say, look at these rates of insolvency. Government will say, look at all these new businesses that have been formed. And no one will say, but look where they all are. They're in the transport sector. They're people zipping around on bikes, delivering things. Now, that sits alongside the economic complexity ratio. I think we're equal 73rd with as Uzbekistan in terms of the sophistication of our economy and how values being derived. And it's like, hang on, you can have those debating points.

But right now, we are not where we need to be. The evidence is compelling and the need to act is way past time. And that's the message I've been trying to put out there using some of those international examples of, well, look, they can do this. But why can't we?

Elinor Kasapidis:
Well, we always learn best from peers and others. And I think it goes to Angad's point about education and that when the value proposition is clear to Australians, they will take it up so we’re...

Bruce Billson:
Well, don't miss his point as well. We are one of the highest cloud deployed. I'm having trouble speak. It's the chamomile tea I had to calm me down before I started. We are one of the most cloud deployed small business economies in the world. Why? Because they don't know. And they don't care. They operate their technology. Single touch payroll obliges them to be there. Your firm and others do great work. It shoots off to the cloud.

Now, isn't that a sign that maybe embedding enablement technology, not just for productivity sake, but reg tech, right sizing the regulation. And the one that I think we miss, where's the aha tech where the technology says, hey, do you know your business looks a little bit like this, but your peers look like that? You're putting 14% of your revenue into occupancy costs. Man, you will never make any money at that rate. Your peers are at eight and nine.

I mean, where's that situational awareness that says, hey, maybe something could be done better. And sadly, at the end of it, when you look like you're hitting a wall, we also have one of the highest rates of zero return on insolvent businesses to creditors. Because people just keep going until they hit the wall.

Why? In our country, if you're part of an insolvent business, you've got commercial Ebola virus. You go to the United States, and if you haven't run an insolvent business, they don't think you've been trying hard enough. So, I mean, culturally, we need that conversation as well.

One last point. We've got to say this matters. The data says young entrepreneurs don't go into entrepreneurship because of their folks or anything they learn at school. They see someone they admire. Now, if Andrew Tate was an entrepreneur, you'd probably see more young men in entrepreneurship. But he's not. So, where are those examples that those young people can point to? Where is the Prime Minister's Small Business Award?

I love a public servant. I technically am one now. So, there's a Prime Minister's Award for public administration. Tick. There's one for educators. Tick. There's one for the arts and the cultural sector. Tick, tick, tick. That's fine. Where's the strong, powerful statement from our nation's leaders that small and family businesses matter so much? We're going to celebrate and honour and pay tribute and provide the examples and the inspiration of the next generation. You could do that tomorrow and it costs you nothing.

Elinor Kasapidis:
It's that recognition of the purpose and the commitment that so many people make. And I will also make a plug for our members, our hardworking public practitioners. I think some of the cloud adoption, it comes because you've got a concentrated group of professionals who will adopt a technology and then disseminate it amongst their millions of clients.

And so, again, where we can target an industry or target a profession, get them to engage. And for the small business owner, like you said, they just put some numbers in. They don't know that they're cloud accounting. They don't know that they're digitally adopting, but off the go.

Bruce Billson:
Matthew Addison, I was just talking before. You've got a cyber security risk. Here's an idea for nothing. For nothing. Cyber as a service. Embedded in accounting software. Taking all those data management action steps. The situation. Why not build it in?

Now, Matthew will be unhappy with me because I said to the government, if you've only got, what's it, 12 million or whatever it is for cyber wardens. I said, okay, put some that way. But give the rest to these guys. And actually embed those data safeguard, good data management action steps, the cyber protection in the software where you start the day thinking, oh, they want me to do what? Yeah, okay. I'll just do that. Why not do that?

Elinor Kasapidis:
But the aha tech...

Angad Soin:
Good news is...

Bruce Billson:
There's a moment.

Angad Soin:
We do that for that reason. Right? And aha tech is on its way, Bruce. Don’t worry.

Bruce Billson:
Excellent.

Elinor Kasapidis:
And so, really, the private sector does a lot. And we're just saying with government policy, what that can do is connect, promote, celebrate, educate, and get that adoption and that sentiment a lot more positive.

So, we are drawing to an end. We've got an election coming up. So, I'll go across the panel. If you could get one thing as an election promise, what would that be? Gavan?

Gavan Ord:
One thing? So, listening to the panel, it's like, how do you flip what we presented into a roadmap for improvement? So, clearly, there are issues which government can make a small commitment and actually drive big improvements.

And I think it's got to be around technology. It's got to be around targeted technology measures that are open to large numbers of businesses. Do something in that space. So, and I think it shows that we've got to focus at this point in time at the lower end if we can get them to improve their little bits of technology. Like, many of them use Xero. There's very large penetration Xero in other products. But they don't necessarily use all the features in your product.

How can we get them to use more of the features in the product? Because some of that provides that aha moment. So, there's very large, low-level technology penetration. How do you move it up to the next level? And it's through incentives.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Awesome. Yasmin?

Yasmin Coe FCPA:
As I touched on before, expand the instant asset write-off and just make it permanent. It no longer needs to be an annual budget announcement. We're well and truly past that point.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Completely agree. Angad?

Angad Soin:
I'd say a culture of prompt payments. That's digital infrastructure. That's industries working together. That's government working together. I mean, Bruce mentioned it, pillow talk cash flow. But cash flow is king for a small business. The more money they have, faster in their bank account, the more confidence to invest. The more confidence to invest, the more likely growth in our economy. And it is a critical part of supporting our economy.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Fantastic. Bruce?

Bruce Billson:
We've got to recalibrate the risk-reward balance. Part of it's incentives. Part of it's, though, the cost of business, the business of doing business, and the risks attached to missteps. Now, it was good that Gavan's summary of actions was a RIS of a different kind. Not a regulatory impact statement, but a reform in regulation incentives. And I think the, what was the S?

Gavan Ord:
I don't know. You're telling me.

Bruce Billson:
Yeah, anyway, it was a good presentation. Good presentation. Because right now, that balance, I think, is out of whack.

Couple of stats. Last full tax year, 46% of small business incorporated entities did not report a profit. 46%. Of the one and a half million self-employed Australians, whom say, this is my full-time livelihood, took home less than average weekly earnings. So these are not rivers of gold.

Sitting against that, Yasmin brilliantly articulated just one touch point. We have a workplace relations system where 95%, 96% of respondents are small employers. Does anyone think the system is designed for small employers? I mean, whatever happened to this customer-centric design? I mean, that's, and then the risk of a misstep is enormous.

So getting those opportunities to succeed in the ecosystem, right, tick. The regulatory, we need a renaissance in discipline around right-size regulation. That's not saying have abandoned at all. It's saying, be realistic about what the risk is and what the capacity is of a small firm to action it. Right now, we have just learned that in the coming months, if you go to the corner pizza shop and they've got an anchovy on one of their pizzas, so it might represent a pupteenth of the value proposition, they're expected to tell you where that anchovy has come from.

Now, I love a good piscatorial feast, but if I'm going to a fishmonger or a restaurant that's pimping glorious John Dory, they should be able to tell me where it's from, and we have those laws. But to say to a corner Thai takeaway that you're already in a segment of the economy that is the most precarious right now, where a good hospitality business gets a 4% to 8% return, and we're going to help the seafood industry on a marketing push by imposing a new regulation on you. Where have we got this so wrong?

Do something useful, like whether two vegetarians fighting is still called a beef. Add some value.

But there are plenty of opportunities to get that risk-reward balance right, to be serious and fair dinkum about regulatory impact and what's expected of a small business in the business of running a business. And then let's make small business sexy again. So people are busting to be a part of it. There's stories everywhere they look. They're celebrated. They're honoured. They're enabled. And then we'll energise enterprise. If you haven't got all that, check out my 14 steps on our website. It'll make your day.

Elinor Kasapidis:
Fantastic. Well, hopefully some of the people walking these halls may have overheard some of our requests. But I think that example that you finished off with really highlights where we find ourselves. And when we're designing policy, something like that just should not be allowed to happen.

So how do we reframe government policy design? How do we create a longer-term, more invested, thoughtful approach that is above politics? And how do we get, like you said, small businesses back on the map and happy again?

I'd like to thank everybody who took the time to join us today. We could obviously talk about this for hours, but time is passing. Thank you so much. And I believe we've got some coffee and snacks there as well. So thank you.

Jeffrey O'Sullivan:
It's clear that the insights from the CPA Australia Small Business Survey are crucial for understanding the difficulties and opportunities that small businesses face today. Thank you for joining us for this special launch episode. Don't forget to check the show notes for links to the complete survey, resources from CPA Australia, and further information on the ongoing support available for small businesses.

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with your colleagues and hit the subscribe button so you don't miss our future episodes. Until next time, thanks for listening to With Interest.

Garreth Hanley:
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