Australia, India and new global trade opportunities

Garreth Hanley:
This is With Interest, a business finance and accounting news podcast, brought to you by CPA Australia.

Chris Hatzis:
Welcome to CPA Australia’s With Interest. I’m Chris Hatzis, podcast producer. In this special episode, we take you back to September 2025 for a conversation recorded live at ECTA Unleashed, a landmark one-day conference held in Sydney between CPA Australia and the Australian (Sydney) chapter of The Institute of Chartered Accountants of India, to explore “Bringing the India-Australia Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement to Life”.

The session, titled ‘Dealing with shocks and uncertainty in cross-border trade’, features Chris Freeland, CEO of CPA Australia, in conversation with Sanjeev Gandhi, Managing Director and CEO of Orica — one of Australia’s corporate giants with a global footprint. Sanjeev shares how Orica responds to dynamic economic environments and shifting regulations, and reflects on the company’s long-standing experience in India. It’s a discussion about navigating uncertainty, building strategic partnerships, and thinking beyond borders. Let’s dive in.

Chris Freeland:
Ladies and gentlemen, it's a great privilege for me to have this conversation, Sanjeev, with you. In preparation for this session I did a little bit of research. I came across a podcast that went for, I saw when I opened it went for more than an hour, and I thought, which was an interview that you had done. I thought I'll just dip in for five minutes and just get a sense of what Sanjeev is like.

And it was so interesting and the story that you told about your career was so fascinating. I definitely lasted the full hour. So I'd love to draw out some of the points that you made in that, in the course of this conversation and your career. But let's start with talking about trade, which is of course the theme of this conference.

So you are the CEO and have been for a number of years of Orica, which when I grew up in Melbourne, used to be called ICI, and this famous, I think it's still your headquarters, ICI House as it was known then, which is regarded as one of the first skyscrapers in Australia actually. So thinking about trade, what are some of the principles that you use that Orica uses to help navigate, in my word, crazy environment is the moment. So how do you think about what are the principles for guiding through times of great uncertainty?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
Thanks, Chris, and thank you all for having me here. I did not realise what I was getting into. I was telling Chris this, I had no idea I would end up in a room full of chartered accountants and buyers, which can be a bit overwhelming. So please, please bear with me. And now, look, I mean global geopolitics, global trade, global uncertainty. Unfortunately, this is something that we live with at Orica every day. We operate in 130, last count, 138 jurisdictions all over the world. So wherever there is a potential to mine something or to build something, you should normally find Orica there.

So we operate in a lot of the developed economies all over the world, but we also operate in a lot of emerging and challenging economies like in Africa, like in emerging Asia, Latin America. So it has been for us, we've had a lot of practice and we've been doing this for 150 years. So we've been doing this for a very, very long time. But what we have seen in the last five years in terms of volatility and uncertainty has been unprecedented.

It's something that I have not seen. I'm doing this for 35 years now. I've not seen this in my 35-year career, what we've gone through in the last five years. Let's not even talk about a global pandemic. Let's not talk about wars happening in Europe and the Middle East. Let's not talk about geopolitics and the conflict that we had between China and Australia, inflation that has been unprecedented in the history of global economy.

And then we had one country which was always a source of stability and power, which is now causing the highest amount of volatility and uncertainty in the world, which is the United States of America. Who would've imagined this. They always say that you never stop learning. And all of the experience that you generate over so many years in your career, they all come to naught because you are facing up to unprecedented challenges.

So I always keep reminding my own management team and people, let's focus on what you control. You cannot focus and you cannot influence what the White House is thinking. You cannot influence what the next policy update out of China is going to be on BHP or iron ore or everything else that we read in the newspapers. You can't influence all of that. So let's focus on what we can control and influence, which is basically our own activities, the way we build our business and design the business model to be resilient, adaptable, and agile.

And those are the three principles under which we operate. You need to be resilient because you'll get hit by shocks that you can't control, whether this is tariffs or supply chain disruptions or wars or whatever else that happens in the world or a global pandemic. And then you need to be agile enough to adapt to those challenges and still sustain your business and continue to deliver on the promise to your shareholders and to your employees and to society in general.

So these are the principles on which we operate, Chris, and they've come really handy to us and I'm really pleased to say that the organisation has evolved over the last five years through these very difficult challenges. And I think we are in a better place today. We feel more comfortable and we feel more confident that we will be able to handle anything that's thrown at us that we come up against.

So once again, let's not get distracted by what we control and influence, deliver on what your objectives are and your strategy is, and then try and manage as best as possible leveraging your global reach and your global network to find a way to mitigate these external factors that keep coming and hitting our business. So that's where we are at today. I don't know what will happen tomorrow morning, and that's the fun part of the business, but that's also the challenge. So you wake up in the morning and you don't want to look up the Twitter feeds and the X feeds and the Truth social feeds because there might be a new shock waiting for you. You just have to be mentally prepared for this.

Chris Freeland:
I saw that US government's imposing a hundred thousand dollars fees on certain visa classes. So it's crazy times. The flip side, does it create opportunities for businesses? And is there any examples you can share about opportunities that have been created as old alliances have been disrupted, new alliances have been created. Certainly Australia is forging new relationships with countries that we had not had such a deep relationship before. But any opportunities for businesses you can share either thematically or specifically that you've experienced?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
So there's a couple of themes that have emerged over the last five years. So sovereign independence on your economy. So try and reduce dependency on partners across the borders and try to be as self-sufficient as possible. Now having said that, not every economy can do everything they need in terms of catering to their societies and to maintain a standard of living. So you still have global trade, but global trade is no longer a given. That's something you have to work very hard for.

So it's very important for countries like Australia to protect sovereign independence in terms of being economically independent and less dependent on external partners, both as a supply source to cater to the economy here in this country, but also as a customer base for you. So diversification is key, and that opens up opportunities for global business because a lot of economies now want to invest in their own resources, in their own industrial base and service industries.

And that gives you, as a business, that gives you opportunities because capital is welcome, technology welcome, and you feel more welcomed entering into new markets or starting up new businesses. So that's the first opportunity. Second is the artificial opportunity created by geopolitics in tariffs. For example, India today is being consciously marginalised by the United States. It's quite clear the H-1B visa is the 50% tariff, but that opens up opportunities for Australia.

So there's no better time than now to build on ECTA and to take it further. And the UK has done this and they're playing a very clever balancing act, entertaining the United States, but then signing a free trade agreement with India and the EU is now lining up into India. The opportunity in India is there, 1.4 billion people, aspirational, a lot of money to spend wanting to have better quality of life. And they look at us here in Australia with envy to say, "What can you share with us and what can we do for you?"

So there's no better opportunity in terms of what the environment is creating today, and I'm sure that our government is looking at it very closely, and we've got the Centre for Australian-India Relations building bridges there, and we've got folks like you here and the diaspora helping us to make those connections. It's extremely important that we take advantage of this upheaval that we are seeing today and nail down a few very preferential and beneficial opportunities that Australia will benefit from. So it opens up a lot of opportunities, but they also come with challenges clearly.

Chris Freeland:
The Australian-India relationship, any practical suggestions as to how Australian businesses, how the Indian diaspora based here in Australia can take better advantage of the opportunities created in India? I said earlier, having gone to India many times, it's overwhelming when you go there. Just the sheer, as all in the room would be aware, I'm sure the growth, the scale, most populous nation in the world. Practically what can be done to pursue those opportunities here?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
Yeah, so I'll start with an example of what Orica did. Orica was I think the first ever Australian investor into India in terms of foreign direct investments. And this happened in 1952, so just a couple of years after India became independent. And at that point of time, ICI that you referred to, given the traditional relationship that the United Kingdom’s had with India, ICI decided to invest in a manufacturing facility in India.

And that is a plaque outside the first factory that ICI built in India, which was inaugurated by the first president of independent India. So it was extremely high profile. That was the beginning of the wave of FDI or foreign direct investments into India. And so Orica was a pioneer. We've been operating there nearly 70 years. We got nearly 1,000, 1,500 hundred people, six to eight different manufacturing sites, and we basically wrote the book on mining in India.

So if you go to the regulator in India, you'll find manuals written by ICI that they're still using as a reference. So quite interesting that it started off at, but unfortunately we lost our way as an economy here, and for good reasons, Australia focused on China and somehow India got left behind. And then in 2020, 2021, when the relationships politically were not so good with China, we realised that it was a mistake.

It was a fallacy. And then the world started talking about China plus one. And obviously, I mean India with close to 1.4 billion people is such a huge opportunity that you can be extremely successful in the country as the Japanese investors and the Korean investors and the American investors have shown in India. But it takes a long breath, it takes a lot of patience and this tendency of Australian businesses to be risk-averse and saying, "I'm not putting capital into the country, but I'd like to trade."

Trading is not a sustainable business model because India has alternatives. And if they like South Australian wine for example, they could also, once a tariff issue is resolved, they would then go to maybe Californian wines. So trading is not sustainable. Trading is just a starting point. It opens doors for you. You dip your toes in the waters of trade in India, you build relationships, you build connections, you find very smart local partners, and then you bring capital onto the ground and you invest.

And that's a commitment that India is looking for. As we in Australia talk about future made in Australia, India talks about making India and they really appreciate the fact that if Australian businesses come with capital and technology and invest in the country and then leverage the Indian stem skillset that we have there, some of the best engineers, scientists, researchers you can find in India willing to work 24/7, have aspirations to work in an Australian blue chip organisation and love to make careers.

And then some of them have aspirations even to come to the headquarter in Australia and experience the Aussie way of life. So there's so much of opportunity and I think we need to get beyond this discussion we always have of cricket and Bollywood and culture. That's all great, but that's all given and the diaspora in the room and in this country, we sustain that and we enjoy that, but that's not good enough. So trade is what, $80 billion scale, something like this bilateral tail, this should be more than $200 billion, this is my view.

So take that brave step, get into the country, talk to the domestic market, find a great partner, talk to us. We've been doing this for 70 years. We are relatively successful in the country. Our business is profitable. We are scaling the business up, we are growing and it has worked for us because we are strong in China, but we are also strong in India, and that's what most Australian businesses need to do.

Chris Freeland:
Unfortunately, cricket and Bollywood is exactly what we have planned for this afternoon's activity. So there's a time and a place for it. Sanjeev, you're involved with the Centre for Australia-India Relations, CEO Network, just what are some of the insights that other CEOs involved in relationships with India are saying what's worked, what hasn't worked, any sort of trips for young players into this terrain?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
Look, I'm sure Cal will talk about this. I don't want to preempt what he has to say, but I think it's a brilliant initiative. So to make it clear, the initiative was funded by the Australian government when Prime Minister Albanese met with Prime Minister Modi a couple of years back in Sydney. I had the pleasure of joining that round table and that's when it was initiated, and then it was funded, it's funded and sponsored by two or three federal ministers. So it's pretty high profile.

And the objective is to focus on outbound investment from Australia into India. So that's very clear. It's supporting, as you say, Australian CEOs and Australian businesses to develop their market and business in India. And the ECTA Treaty, the political will at the highest levels, all of that opens doors. But in the end, the hard work, the grunt work has to be done by the businesses.

So the government is not going to step in and help you set your business up, they'll support you, advise you, and then you can talk to Austrade and you can talk to DFAT. And they've been extremely supportive of promoting the relationship, but businesses have to take that step forward. So there's a lot of talk, there's a lot of positivity and we've seen the first impact of trade flows and we've seen bilateral relationships economically grow, but there's a long, long way to go.

And the discussion here in Australia is, I mean we've got capital. If you just look at our Super industry and there's a lot of capital there, most of that capital is going either to Europe or the US. So the question to ask is why not India? It's a massive opportunity, it's a free market, your capital is protected there and you get pretty good returns, which helps all of us with our pensions.

So there's a clear opportunity, the healthcare, massive opportunity. We do some very, very good fancy healthcare products, medical health, dental health, all of that. And India is a massive market and they need all of this. Now, 10 years back, 15 years back, it was more difficult because obviously Australian products are not cheap. They're high quality but high end and they're expensive.

But today the willingness to pay and the ability to pay is there in India. So you look at luxury goods, you look at Scotch whiskeys, you see it's a big market for all of these German cars. So they're happy to pay for Australian quality products. And so there, that's where the opportunities to cater to an aspiring 800 to billion strong middle class who's got the money to spend and would like to improve their lifestyles and focus on health and work-life balance and all of the other opportunities.

We've got some great opportunities, products and services that we can take into India, but there is still that reluctance. It comes I think from a lack of awareness of India, it comes from the boards in Australia who do not have that kind of exposure to India as they do to China. So there's a bit of education to do, and that's what the Centre does. And we go into boardrooms and we talk about opportunities in India, we connect the dots, we help people have conversations and try and support this momentum that we have there. And that's going to lead to big things, is my view. So I'm very, very optimistic about that relationship.

Chris Freeland:
Productivity is a big focus for the Australian federal government, and it's something that CPA Australia has been involved in advocating for steps that can be taken to improve productivity, including lesser regulation, deregulation. You've worked in a vast number of countries, I heard from your podcast, but having been in Australia for half a dozen years or so observations on productivity, what could be done here? Are there any things that surprise you about the Australian business environment and things that if you could advocate for change to improve productivity, you'd suggest?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
Look, I'm a relative newcomer to the country, just five years working and living in Australia and Melbourne and you come into a country where you've not really operated too much in the past with some kind of perceptions about a easy lifestyle and work and life balance and people at the beach and having two-hour lunches. And then when I come into Orica, I'm totally blown away by the work ethic in Australia, and I have folks in Australia, but globally, 15,000 people who work 24/7 because mines never stop.

They never stop for Christmas, they never stop for Diwali, they never stop for anything. So it's non-stop pressure and the focus is productivity, and that's what the industry is all about. So that's the big, big positive here. The skill set of the people here, the work ethic is just absolutely outstanding. But then you're faced with challenges which impact productivity, it's regulation.

We are massively over-regulated. I'm so pleased that your organisation, Chris, is talking about this. We need to have more of those conversations. And obviously the treasurer had his meeting where he's got a lot of feedback and I'm hoping that some actions will come out of it in terms of deregulating and that's urgently needed. We are a high-cost country and we are in global competition with the emerging markets where they've got advantages of lower labour costs, lower energy costs, that's one of my pet peeves.

Our energy costs are just too high, whether it's electricity, whether it's natural gas. We are sitting on all of these fantastic resources, why do we as consumers have to pay so much for this? So there's obviously a problem with the energy policy that's broken in the country, and then we've had this systematic culling of our manufacturing base. We don't produce cars in this country.

We don't produce steel in this country. We've got a handful of steel producers left. We've got just a handful of cement producers left. So basic needs that you need, fertilisers, we don't have too many fertiliser producers left. So these are basic ingredients of an economy which would support the consumer and the citizen of the country, and we are losing that every day. So just as one data point, the ratio of manufacturing jobs in the country today is less than 5%. It used to be 25%, 15, 20 years back. And this is just telling you that policy is not supporting business in the country.

Now the government realises this, they're hopefully talking and doing the right things, but deregulate, reduce the presence of government and business, allow businesses to or make Australia a more attractive place. I've publicly stated this, that Australia is not at all attractive for investments, Orica’s a small company, but in the last three years, more than 3 billion, three and a half billion dollars have been invested overseas.

And that is money that should have been spent in Australia because the returns for capital were much better elsewhere, whether it was United States or Asia rather than in this country. Meanwhile, more than a thousand jobs from Australia by Orica have been offshored into low-cost regions. And so businesses will find a way to survive and they'll work with and around regulation to ensure that they can continue to deliver sustainable returns. But that's not good for the economy. And we've got some fundamental challenges.

We've got peak coal, we've got peak iron ore, we've got peak gas, and these have been money spinners for the country for decades. What will happen after that? So it's pretty serious. Now, obviously the government realises that, understands that they're trying to work together with businesses on a master plan to ensure that there is a future. AI gives a lot of, I'm sure you'll have conversations on AI that gives you opportunities. The tech space gives you opportunities, but if you don't manufacture basic requirements in this country, we will get into trouble.

So productivity is going to be extremely critical because that feeds into your cost of goods produced, that feeds into your pricing, that feeds into you being competitive versus importing stuff from all over the world. So it's going to be make or break the next five to 10 years for Australia in my view, is going to be make or break.

Chris Freeland:
We've had a bunch of questions, let me just pick a couple of those. I might pick one. Given the audience, this is a good question, what role do accountants play in how your company responds to these external shocks?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
You are the treasurers of our personal lives and of our business lives. So mission critical and extremely valuable, obviously to control the purse strings and to keep us disciplined because sometimes when you're running businesses, there's a lot of exuberance and there's a lot of excitement about new brilliant ideas and that's great. And we are an innovative country and we've got a smart bunch of folks who always are asking for capital, and that's where the numbers folks like you keep us true and remind us, "Yeah, that's a great idea.

Maybe it'll deliver returns in 20 years, but that does not fulfil our criteria for investment and capital returns and shareholder value," and all the other difficult stuff that you have to balance along with the exuberance of innovation and growth. So you play a very, very important role both in all of our personal lives, obviously to help us manage our money, our savings, and the quality of life that we have, but also in businesses to keep us true to our strategy and the guardrails that come with it. So absolutely critical. I'm just trying to win a few friends here.

Chris Freeland:
Excellent. Well done. Here's a big question, see if you can answer it, not too long. Do you think the move from globalisation to localization is relatively short term?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
I would not say that. I think people have realised that the days of free and fair trade are over and it's me before others. So it's all about protecting your own interests and there will be phases up and down, but I don't think it's going to be reversible.

So you're not going back into the good old days of the WTO and free and fair trade and low taxes and no trade barriers and no non-trade barriers. I think those days are over, and that's especially critical for Australia because we are so dependent on international economies to fulfil our basic needs, but also to sustain our products and services that we make.

For example, I mean education is a huge industry in Australia, so we are dependent on students coming in and this means you need open borders and you need proper immigration policies, and then we export all the minerals and natural resources to other markets because we don't produce anything here. So that's going to be critical for us.

So we are exposed, we are more exposed than most other markets, and I don't believe this is going to change the risk, sovereign risk for Australia with this new tendency of trying to protect your own jobs and your own people and your own economies while protecting the environment and doing the right thing for the future generation that's going to become more prominent. So it's a big, big, big challenge for us in our country here.

Chris Freeland:
Paul Bloxham said Australia should focus on renewables and education for its economic prosperity. Do you share those views?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
Renewables is interesting. I mean, it's a good thing that we look at renewables and we look at de-carb and we look at having a sustainable future for our future generation. It's all mission critical. But remember when we ever talk about this, we call it an energy transition. The key word is transition. Transition doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen in five years. It's a decade long journey. It could be 10, 20, 30 years till Australia can decarbonize and the world follows. So we need to be very careful to ensure that our initiatives to get into renewable energy and all, it's all absolutely the right thing to do, but it's a mix of energy. You can't just depend on one source of energy. So you can't depend on coal-fired power plants for the foreseeable future.

So they play a very important role today. Maybe they'll still play a role in five and 10 years, but after that it becomes questionable. So you need to have coal, gas, maybe nuclear in the mix. You need to have solar and wind, you need to have hydro, you need to have a mix of energy in the energy mix that allows you to then transition away from the more carbon-intensive sources like coal first, then gas, and then continue to decarbonize. Why is that important? Learn from the experience of other economies who went harder.

So my home country of Germany, they went very hard and overnight decided to shut down all of their nuclear power plants and they got into big trouble. And today, Germany was known as an industrial powerhouse, and at the moment they're getting slaughtered, their manufacturing base is getting hollowed out. Competition from China, competition from emerging markets is basically destroying the German economy.

So that step was too far, it was too bold, it was too quick, and it has massive implications and significant impact. So Australia has to learn from these kind of unfortunate mistakes that have been made and plan a proper transition that we can all digest, maintain our quality of life, but also continue to decarbonize because that's the right thing to do.

The service industry is critical, absolutely, but you cannot survive an economy based on service industry. You look at the smallest economies in terms of population, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, these are tiny economies in terms of population, but they all have a massive manufacturing base, right? Korea is a powerhouse in steel-making and in shipbuilding and in manufacture of chemicals and electronics and the famous brands there.

Singapore's got a lot of tiny little islands. It's got a lot of manufacturing. Why do they do that? To have a balanced economy. You cannot just live on one aspect of it and not do the other. So the service industry is very important. Education is very important. Universities and tourism are very important, but you also need manufacturing. So how do we find that balance? And again, it goes back to the question of productivity.

Chris Freeland:
A final question, maybe a personal question. You've lived in many countries now in Australia for half a dozen years or so. What have you enjoyed most about living here in Australia? And is there anything on your bucket list of things to do in Australia that you haven't yet done? And maybe a final question, you can't live in Melbourne without having a footy team. Have you chosen a footy team, AFL footy team?

Sanjeev Gandhi:
So I'll tell you, I'll start with that one because that's interesting. I had no idea what AFL is. Never ever understood it, never followed it before I came to this country. I'm a huge cricket fan, right? And Australia was my second favourite cricket team. So you can guess who the first top favourite for us. And then I land in Melbourne. I remember the 4th of July, 2020, right before we got into lockdowns in Victoria. And I went into the office on my first day and there was a package waiting for me on my desk from something called the Carlton Football-

Chris Freeland:
Smart, smart.

Sanjeev Gandhi:
And then I realised that the people who helped me transition into Australia, one of them, a dear friend of mine was on the board of Carlton. And so they obviously pre-empted and Carlton adopted me. I don't think that was the best decision.

Chris Freeland:
No, you're right.

Sanjeev Gandhi:
But I understood here that the loyalties to your football team are mission critical here and you should never change. So now I'm a Carlton supporter for life, fortunately or unfortunately. I'll tell you what I miss in Australia. I miss the autobahns with no speed limits that I had in Germany.

You drive these beautiful cars and then you have to go at 80 and 90 and a hundred and 110. And I really miss going fast. That's something that I really loved when I lived in Germany because a lot of portions of the highways there do not have speed limits. And then you can really test your cars and they're designed for it.

What I do enjoy here is the casual nature of the society here. So in Germany, I had to wear a tie. In Japan it was all about being respectful. And in Asia, normally hierarchy is expected to behave in a certain way. So when I was coming in and joining Orica and I had no idea what I was getting into, I was visiting Australia in the past mainly for tourism.

And so I was talking to my chair and I said, "Okay, so I'm coming in and so I get a salary, what else do I get?" And they said, "You get a parking lot in the office in Melbourne." So I said, "Okay, so who drives the car?" He said, "Even in Australia, the Prime Minister washes and drives." And that was a lie, I know. He said, "The Prime Minister washes his own car and tanks it up and drives it himself. So we've got something called FBT," that's something that you all know.

But it's been an absolute pleasure to come and live in this country. It started very difficult times with the lockdowns and not being able to meet and interact with people. I would not, by the way, advise anybody to take over a new role in a new country in a new industry under lockdown because you can't meet anybody. That was ugly. But since then, things have gotten better.

Wherever I have been, I've been welcomed with open arms, I've made a lot of friends in such a short period of time. And I have to say my family and I, we are really enjoying this experience. And then I have the pleasure of talking to all of you clever folks, and that's always the best part of the job, I have to say.

Chris Freeland:
Well, it's been a great privilege having you here at our conference. Thank you so much. Please join with me in thanking Sanjeev.

Chris Hatzis:
You’ve been listening to Chris Freeland, CEO of CPA Australia and Sanjeev Gandhi, CEO of Orica, recorded live at ECTA Unleashed in September 2025. From navigating global uncertainty to building resilient business models and exploring opportunities in India, this conversation reminds us that adaptability and strategic thinking are key in today’s dynamic trade environment.

For our listeners eager to learn more, please check out the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe to "With Interest" and share this episode with your colleagues and friends in the business community. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Garreth Hanley:
You've been listening to With Interest, a CPA Australia podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, help others discover With Interest by leaving us a review and sharing this episode with colleagues, clients, or anyone else interested in the latest finance business and accounting news. To find out more about our other podcasts and CPA Australia, check the show notes for this episode, and we hope you can join us again for another episode of With Interest.